Color of murex trunculus dye

[Doorknob]

2. True, he proposed it out of the purple It's no secret that the reason he rejected it was because he thought it can't dye blue, which may be true 
 
 

 

That is not completely accurate. He rejected it because he understood the gemara to mean the chilazon is very rare, whereas the trunculus has historically always been readily available, and is so until this day.
But I don't think that quote from Rav Herzog is relevant ro this discussion. The main question is if we know it was actually used for blue, not if it was ever proposed as a possibility.

[rhecht]

There is no historical evidence of the murex ever used for blue. It is all conjecture.




 

If you go only based on the Roman sources you might be right, but we have evidence it was used for Techeiles:

1. We have a Girsa from the Raavya's Girsa in Talmud Yerushalmi Brachos Perek Alef Halacha Beis (https://bluefringes.com/textual_sources ... -prasinan/) that in Techeiles and Karti have Purphirin and Prisinan following. If Karti (hebrew) and Prisinan (greek) are the same thing, Techeiles and Purphirin must mean the same thing as well. Therefore Techeiles must have been derived from the purpura which as we know is the murex species. And the one that consistently yields the blueish shades is the trunculus.

2. Rabbi Herzog (https://porphyrology.com/view-doctorate/) didn't propose the murex trunculus out of the blue. He based it off an 1833 finding from Bartolomeo Bizio that trunculus produces blue. This was decades before Henri Lacasz-Duthier's claim (https://porphyrology.com/view-doctorate ... d-argaman/).



 

1. The Raavya there who is quoting the Sefer Yerushalmi (from the times of the geonim) says that techeiles is purple, not that is comes from the purple-fish. In other words, this Raavya is proof that techeiles is purple.

2. True, he proposed it out of the purple It's no secret that the reason he rejected it was because he thought it can't dye blue, which may be true 
 
 

 

1. Techeiles being purple, or blue-purple is a whole other discussion which deserves its own thread. But one other way to understand it is that Techeiles was a super-color category which includes all blues, including blue-purple and blue-green. And we have a tradition from many Rabbis that it's sky blue, or even dark sky blue.

2. His rejection about purple was based on misinformation by a chemist, Paul Friedlander, who told him this. Rabbi Herzog likely never dyed from the trunculus the more you read his thesis. But besides that, he rejected the trunculus based on the fact that it doesn't meet the hyper-literal interpretation (https://porphyrology.com/view-doctorate ... he-talmud/). Still, being Domeh LeYam has a basis to not be talking about color per see, but the sea bed. See https://www.mywesternwall.net/2022/07/1 ... dolim.html for more details.

[Mr. Genugshoin]

1. Techeiles being purple, or blue-purple is a whole other discussion which deserves its own thread. But one other way to understand it is that Techeiles was a super-color category which includes all blues, including blue-purple and blue-green. And we have a tradition from many Rabbis that it's sky blue, or even dark sky blue.

2. His rejection about purple was based on misinformation by a chemist, Paul Friedlander, who told him this. Rabbi Herzog likely never dyed from the trunculus the more you read his thesis. But besides that, he rejected the trunculus based on the fact that it doesn't meet the hyper-literal interpretation (https://porphyrology.com/view-doctorate ... he-talmud/). Still, being Domeh LeYam has a basis to not be talking about color per see, but the sea bed. See https://www.mywesternwall.net/2022/07/1 ... dolim.html for more details.


 

1. I am not suggesting that techeiles is purple, rather that it is the plain meaning of the Raavya which you do not need to accept. To say that the Raavya means that it comes from the purple-fish is a misreading.

2. It might have been misinformation (that is subject to debate) but if there had been a find that proved they used it for blue he would not have rejected it for that reason (I agree there were other reasons as well, domeh leyam is its own subject)
 
 

[rhecht]

1. Techeiles being purple, or blue-purple is a whole other discussion which deserves its own thread. But one other way to understand it is that Techeiles was a super-color category which includes all blues, including blue-purple and blue-green. And we have a tradition from many Rabbis that it's sky blue, or even dark sky blue.

2. His rejection about purple was based on misinformation by a chemist, Paul Friedlander, who told him this. Rabbi Herzog likely never dyed from the trunculus the more you read his thesis. But besides that, he rejected the trunculus based on the fact that it doesn't meet the hyper-literal interpretation (https://porphyrology.com/view-doctorate ... he-talmud/). Still, being Domeh LeYam has a basis to not be talking about color per see, but the sea bed. See https://www.mywesternwall.net/2022/07/1 ... dolim.html for more details.



 

1. I am not suggesting that techeiles is purple, rather that it is the plain meaning of the Raavya which you do not need to accept. To say that the Raavya means that it comes from the purple-fish is a misreading.

2. It might have been misinformation (that is subject to debate) but if there had been a find that proved they used it for blue he would not have rejected it for that reason (I agree there were other reasons as well, domeh leyam is its own subject)
 
 

 

Re: 1, I don't think it's a misreading. Purpura means both purple and the snail whose dye source was preferred by the ancient Greeks and Romans to produce purple. It's no different from the words orange or peach, which both refer to an object and color.

Re: 2, I'll suggest that tf there was zero doubt that it didn't produce blue, Rabbi Herzog wouldn't have introduced the MT as a candidate in the first place. 

[Mr. Genugshoin]

Re: 1, I don't think it's a misreading. Purpura means both purple and the snail whose dye source was preferred by the ancient Greeks and Romans to produce purple. It's no different from the words orange or peach, which both refer to an object and color.

Re: 2, I'll suggest that tf there was zero doubt that it didn't produce blue, Rabbi Herzog wouldn't have introduced the MT as a candidate in the first place. 

 

1. He is clearly referring to the color just as the leek green is a color.
2. I am asking for positive evidence
 

[Doorknob]

2. It might have been misinformation (that is subject to debate) but if there had been a find that proved they used it for blue he would not have rejected it for that reason (I agree there were other reasons as well, domeh leyam is its own subject)
 
 


 

What is your source that Rav Herzog rejected it because it did not dye blue? From what I saw he was under the impression that it did dye blue, and nevertheless rejected it. (Because it did nor fit with the gemaras description as a rare species, among other issues)
 

[Mr. Genugshoin]

2. It might have been misinformation (that is subject to debate) but if there had been a find that proved they used it for blue he would not have rejected it for that reason (I agree there were other reasons as well, domeh leyam is its own subject)
 
 



 

What is your source that Rav Herzog rejected it because it did not dye blue? From what I saw he was under the impression that it did dye blue, and nevertheless rejected it. (Because it did nor fit with the gemaras description as a rare species, among other issues)
 

 

the techeiles chaburah video
 

[Doorknob]

2. It might have been misinformation (that is subject to debate) but if there had been a find that proved they used it for blue he would not have rejected it for that reason (I agree there were other reasons as well, domeh leyam is its own subject)
 
 




 

What is your source that Rav Herzog rejected it because it did not dye blue? From what I saw he was under the impression that it did dye blue, and nevertheless rejected it. (Because it did nor fit with the gemaras description as a rare species, among other issues)
 


 

the techeiles chaburah video
 

 

I wouldn't rely on anything there.
 

[Mr. Genugshoin]

What is your source that Rav Herzog rejected it because it did not dye blue? From what I saw he was under the impression that it did dye blue, and nevertheless rejected it. (Because it did nor fit with the gemaras description as a rare species, among other issues)
 

the techeiles chaburah video
 

I wouldn't rely on anything there.
 

not arguing
 

[rhecht]

Re: 1, I don't think it's a misreading. Purpura means both purple and the snail whose dye source was preferred by the ancient Greeks and Romans to produce purple. It's no different from the words orange or peach, which both refer to an object and color.

Re: 2, I'll suggest that tf there was zero doubt that it didn't produce blue, Rabbi Herzog wouldn't have introduced the MT as a candidate in the first place. 


 

1. He is clearly referring to the color just as the leek green is a color.
2. I am asking for positive evidence
 

 

1. Techeiles and Karti meaning colors or colored wool makes sense the same way orange and peach both mean colors and fruits. I'm not sure where the disagreement is.
2. Purphirin meaning Techeiles because Prisinan means Karti makes perfect logical sense and is positive evidence.