Color of murex trunculus dye

[Mr. Genugshoin]

Either purpura is purple or a supercolor of blues which include blue purple. In the attachment here (blue-purple-red.png) you can see a range of colors going from blue to red. Colors 1 and 2 from the left could be said to be from the Murex trunculus, but all these colors are purphirin.

Here's another quotation from a 14th century Girsa from a similar Mishna. 
 14th century quotation.JPG The differences here between this and the current Yerushalmi (Screenshot 2023-02-15 at 6.51.29 PM.png
 ) are subtle yet enough to make one rethink if it's referring to color or material.

As an aside, one reason why Yerushalmi isn't taught in Yeshivas like Bavli is, is because the Yerushalmi went through many more significant changes that different Girsas can change everything we know about what is being said. That's not to say that the Bavli isn't guilty either.


 

Do you have a source that purpura contains such a wide range of colors? Would you consider color #1 to be "purple"?

The changes in the new manuscript are insignificant, as mentioned this is not the real Yerushalmi rather Sefer Yerushalmi from the times of the geonim, see more in R' Aharon Gabbai's article in Yarchon Haotzer.
 
 

[Mr. Genugshoin]

On second thought, although it would seem that what I said is correct in understanding the SY, the Raavya himself explains והוא מעיל שקוראין פורפרא which means that it is a cloak known as the פורפרא, this would have no connection to purple rather that is the name of the cloak

[rhecht]

On second thought, although it would seem that what I said is correct in understanding the SY, the Raavya himself explains והוא מעיל שקוראין פורפרא which means that it is a cloak known as the פורפרא, this would have no connection to purple rather that is the name of the cloak

 

And the Meil would likely have been made of wool. Hence Techeiles is a dyed wool in the blue range.
 

[rhecht]

Either purpura is purple or a supercolor of blues which include blue purple. In the attachment here (blue-purple-red.png) you can see a range of colors going from blue to red. Colors 1 and 2 from the left could be said to be from the Murex trunculus, but all these colors are purphirin.

Here's another quotation from a 14th century Girsa from a similar Mishna. 
 14th century quotation.JPG The differences here between this and the current Yerushalmi (Screenshot 2023-02-15 at 6.51.29 PM.png
 ) are subtle yet enough to make one rethink if it's referring to color or material.

As an aside, one reason why Yerushalmi isn't taught in Yeshivas like Bavli is, is because the Yerushalmi went through many more significant changes that different Girsas can change everything we know about what is being said. That's not to say that the Bavli isn't guilty either.



 

Do you have a source that purpura contains such a wide range of colors? Would you consider color #1 to be "purple"?

The changes in the new manuscript are insignificant, as mentioned this is not the real Yerushalmi rather Sefer Yerushalmi from the times of the geonim, see more in R' Aharon Gabbai's article in Yarchon Haotzer.
 
 

 

You have some commentaries writing that it's sky blue, some dark sky blue, and some blue-purple. The Metzius is that the MT produces all these colors. Furthermore, Rambam writes that Techeiles has to be "from a Chilazon." He doesn't write that the color needs to be an exact shade, but that it needs to be sourced from a Chilazon and not from Kala Ilan.

The changes I shared with you were shared with my by Yehoshua Yankelewitz some years ago, and TBH I remember him telling me this was a bombshell against Dr. Mendel Singer's thesis on purpura being a robe, but I don't recall exactly how it was a bombshell.

[Mr. Genugshoin]

On second thought, although it would seem that what I said is correct in understanding the SY, the Raavya himself explains והוא מעיל שקוראין פורפרא which means that it is a cloak known as the פורפרא, this would have no connection to purple rather that is the name of the cloak



 

And the Meil would likely have been made of wool. Hence Techeiles is a dyed wool in the blue range.
 


 

I'm not sure what you mean by that. The cloak is called purpura, and the Raavya assumes this particular cloak was usually blue. This does not identify techeiles at all.
 

[Mr. Genugshoin]

 

I'm not arguing that techeiles is blue, however the SY calls it purple (purpura). If techeiles can only be blue this SY cannot be accepted. I am asking for a source that purpura in Greek includes blue (for example in English purple does not include blue), if it does there is no kasha from the SY.

Another thought: The Raavya was a Rishon, and he did not know what the chilazon was; the importance of the Raavya for this topic is the SY that he quotes. Now, the line that he says והוא מעיל etc. is clearly not from the SY, rather an explanation from the Raavya, so although it is hard to understand (for many reasons; the manuscripts have to do with this) that sentence doesn't contribute much to our discussion. 
All we have is the SY, from the times of the geonim, stating that techeiles is purple.
 

[rhecht]

 

I'm not arguing that techeiles is blue, however the SY calls it purple (purpura). If techeiles can only be blue this SY cannot be accepted. I am asking for a source that purpura in Greek includes blue (for example in English purple does not include blue), if it does there is no kasha from the SY.

Another thought: The Raavya was a Rishon, and he did not know what the chilazon was; the importance of the Raavya for this topic is the SY that he quotes. Now, the line that he says והוא מעיל etc. is clearly not from the SY, rather an explanation from the Raavya, so although it is hard to understand (for many reasons; the manuscripts have to do with this) that sentence doesn't contribute much to our discussion. 
All we have is the SY, from the times of the geonim, stating that techeiles is purple.
 

 

The word Purpura means purple. But it also means a snail from the murex family: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purpura_(gastropod) . Again, orange and peach are both fruits and colors. So I don't see it as a misreading to say it refers to the snail that was prized for dyeing purple, yet was able to also dye blue as we now know today. Purphirin it would seem would be a derivative of the purpura which includes many blues, purples, and reds. That's why I'm suggesting that the ancient Greeks used it to refer to either a supercolor or dyed wool.

What's also important about this supercolor is that, unlike Dam Niddah which needs to be a specific shade, nowhere in the Gemara does it state that Techeiles needs to be a specific shade. So light blue, dark blue, and blue-purple are all different tires of the same car.

Now, Techeiles was also referred to by the Rambam himself to be midday sky blue in a few places. Furthermore lots of Acharonim and contemporary Gedolim accept the color to be sky blue: https://www.techeiles.org/wp-content/up ... m-5780.pdf . And if you want to say that the Rishonim lost their Mesorah, let's look at the main ones where they got theirs from:

Rambam - Received the mesorah and even chulyos from Shmuel bar Chofni Gaon. Chofni Gaon himself lived in the 900s, not long after Techeiles "officially" disappeared.
Raavad - Received the mesorah from Natronoi Gaon who lived in the 900s (he doesn't write blue but Natronoi Gaon lived when Techeiles was around).
Rashi/Tosafos - Received the mesorah from the yeshiva of Yaakov ben Yakar in Worms who lived in the 900s.

All of these in turn received a direct Mesorah from Talmudic times that Techeiles is blue. So it's not relevant that these Rishonim themselves didn't see it in person.

But you're right in that some write that Techeiles is purple, which while to some would spell a Teiku, others see it as an "AND" answer, it's blue-purple AND sky blue AND dark blue as long as it's from the same creature AND that the core color is blue.

[rhecht]

 

I'm not arguing that techeiles is blue, however the SY calls it purple (purpura). If techeiles can only be blue this SY cannot be accepted. I am asking for a source that purpura in Greek includes blue (for example in English purple does not include blue), if it does there is no kasha from the SY.

Another thought: The Raavya was a Rishon, and he did not know what the chilazon was; the importance of the Raavya for this topic is the SY that he quotes. Now, the line that he says והוא מעיל etc. is clearly not from the SY, rather an explanation from the Raavya, so although it is hard to understand (for many reasons; the manuscripts have to do with this) that sentence doesn't contribute much to our discussion. 
All we have is the SY, from the times of the geonim, stating that techeiles is purple.
 

 

H/T Yisroel Rosenberg:

"This following is an excerpt from Bochart chapter 10  Which is why the Poets call whatever is purple … such as the sun and dawn.Vergil in Ciris: Between the purple suns and white stars of the moon ......and in Aetna:  the golden light reddening with purplish purple would rise.Ovid Metamorphoses Book 3: Which color is usual for clouds struck[1] by the blow of the opposing[2] sun[3] or of purple dawn.and Book 6: ...... as the sky is want to become purple when dawn first appears.And in the letter of Phaedra to Hippolytus: who moves the warm day with purple car.And of Cydippe to Acontius:  The sun would wish to remove the yoke(s) from his purple steeds.     written in an article called "millennia of murex" in the Paragraph which starts “Our ancestors” it states as follows "As a color, however, “purple” encompassed all the shades that could be obtained from the murex family of shellfish, from ultramarine to pink. Which color resulted depended on what species’ pigment went into the dye pot, what it was or wasn’t mixed with, for how long and how many times the yarn or cloth was dyed and even the season in which the shellfish had been harvested. Faced with such a rainbow, “purple” was not so much a color as a notion, a status" [1] /tinged[2] /oppostie[3] (the facing sun)"

[Mr. Genugshoin]

 

I'm not arguing that techeiles is blue, however the SY calls it purple (purpura). If techeiles can only be blue this SY cannot be accepted. I am asking for a source that purpura in Greek includes blue (for example in English purple does not include blue), if it does there is no kasha from the SY.

Another thought: The Raavya was a Rishon, and he did not know what the chilazon was; the importance of the Raavya for this topic is the SY that he quotes. Now, the line that he says והוא מעיל etc. is clearly not from the SY, rather an explanation from the Raavya, so although it is hard to understand (for many reasons; the manuscripts have to do with this) that sentence doesn't contribute much to our discussion. 
All we have is the SY, from the times of the geonim, stating that techeiles is purple.
 



 

H/T Yisroel Rosenberg:

"This following is an excerpt from Bochart chapter 10  Which is why the Poets call whatever is purple … such as the sun and dawn.Vergil in Ciris: Between the purple suns and white stars of the moon ......and in Aetna:  the golden light reddening with purplish purple would rise.Ovid Metamorphoses Book 3: Which color is usual for clouds struck[1] by the blow of the opposing[2] sun[3] or of purple dawn.and Book 6: ...... as the sky is want to become purple when dawn first appears.And in the letter of Phaedra to Hippolytus: who moves the warm day with purple car.And of Cydippe to Acontius:  The sun would wish to remove the yoke(s) from his purple steeds.     written in an article called "millennia of murex" in the Paragraph which starts “Our ancestors” it states as follows "As a color, however, “purple” encompassed all the shades that could be obtained from the murex family of shellfish, from ultramarine to pink. Which color resulted depended on what species’ pigment went into the dye pot, what it was or wasn’t mixed with, for how long and how many times the yarn or cloth was dyed and even the season in which the shellfish had been harvested. Faced with such a rainbow, “purple” was not so much a color as a notion, a status" [1] /tinged[2] /oppostie[3] (the facing sun)"


 

What are you trying to say? That purple included blue? I would expect a better source than a theory of Bochart.
 

[MIlanH]

@rhecht it does seem likely, that if the murex was used for blue in ancient times, so purpura could have included that color as well.
However, as pointed out before, there is no evidence that it was ever used for blue, so it is unlikely that pupura can mean blue.
There is evidence that it was used for blue-purple, similar to the first picture you attached above. But not sky blue, like is used today.