Blue Fringes Discussion Forum

I didn't see inside but to say Chazal CALLED the Chilazon a "fish" is untrue. They said "וברייתו דומה לדג", no more and no less.

And doubting the meaning of the word "Chilazon" is like doubting any other unchanged and common noun. 

I can understand why there are Jews who gave up on his sort and use "marketing" to spread the truth!

Levush HaAron explains very well the meaning of all these words, which are klall and which perat, which are in Hebrew, etc.

Rav Perr then says:

The murex mucus is not blood, neither biologically nor in color. P’til advocates attempt to cope with this problem by writing the word thus, “blood”. The implication here is that the “ancients” were imprecise in their use of language. However, there happen to be excellent words used in the Talmud for mucus: Rir, Leicha, and Maya are some of them.

Levush HaAron addresses this perfectly as well.

Mr. wrote:Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:03 am

rhecht wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:24 pm

Doorknob wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:07 pm הלכות ציצית פ"ב ה"ה that's how he understands שבלילתא that Rabbi Perr quotes
 



 

I see it now (https://www.chabad.org/library/article_ ... er-Two.htm). ומיא דשבלילתא could translate as וְרִיר שֶׁל שַׁבְּלוּל. Why Rabbi Perr didn't spell that translation out is curious because no Rishon explicitly states that Rashi was wrong.Screenshot 2023-03-16 at 4.15.22 PM.png
 




 

It is questionable if the Rambam ever saw Rashi. I agree that Rabbi Perr could have been clearer.
 



 

Okay so I found how we can resolve this whole Shablul/Shivlits controversy, though in the following ways:

1. Based on certain commentaries, Shivlita is a general term for a Gastropod, Chilazon is a term for snail with a shell , only.

See Jastrow 

שַׁבְּלוּל m. (שבל to drag along, cmp. b. h. שֹׁבֶל; cmp. שִׁלְשׁוּל III) snail without the shell. Sabb. 77ᵇ, v. כָּתִית; Y. Ber. IX, 13ᶜ bot. (ed. Krot. שכלון, ed. Ven. שבלון, corr. acc.), v. חָזִית.

שַׁבְּלוּלְיָה m. (preced. art.) a species of mollusks, slug. Y. Nidd. III, 50ᵈ אילין נשייא דאמרן ש׳ דכר שבלולה נוקבא וכ׳ (ed. Krot. שכ׳, corr. acc.) we do not rely on those women who say that if the placenta resembles (in substance and color) a shabb’luliah, it indicates a male fœtus, if a shabb’lul, a female.

שַׁבְלוּלִיתָא f. (Shaf. of בלל; cmp. תֶּבֶל, תַּבְלִין) fenugreek. Sabb. 110ᵇ Ms. M. (ed. שַׁבְלִילְתָּא). Men. 42ᵇ מיא דש׳ Ms. M. (ed. דשבלילתא) juice of fenugreek. Gitt. 69ᵃ ש׳ Rashi (ed. שׁוּבְלִילְתָּא). Ab. Zar. 38ᵇ שבלילתא.

See Klein

שַׁבְּלוּל m.n. snail (a hapax legomenon in the Bible, occurring Ps. 58:9). [Of uncertain origin; possibly a Shaph‘el form from בלל (= to mix), and lit. meaning ‘causing moisture’, and so called in allusion to its slimy trail. cp. the related JAram. תִּבְלָלָא (= snail).] Derivative: שַׁבְּלוּלִי.

So in Hebrew shablul is a general term for Gastropod and chomet is for a Gastropod with shell, only. Based on this translation by the Rambam, any other gastropod could be used with the other ingredients to test against Techeiles.

(H/T Gershom Baraza for this insight).

2. Rabbi Yisroel Barkin wrote on this already:  
3. Shablul seems to always be used in the context of having ריר, see attached. Could possibly be connected to שבלול and שביל, a trail of mucus. See Tanchum Yerushalmi. (H/T Avrohom Gross)

     
 
 

The other way to get out of it is to say that שבלול is a land snail, whereas חילזון is a sea snail.
שערי תירוצים לא ננעלו

Doorknob wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:10 am The other way to get out of it is to say that שבלול is a land snail, whereas חילזון is a sea snail.
שערי תירוצים לא ננעלו

 

Right. Rabbi Barkin wrote this and shared it with me. Unfortunately it's in a kuntreiss he has yet to publish.
 

rhecht wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:28 pmRight. Rabbi Barkin wrote this and shared it with me. Unfortunately it's in a kuntreiss he has yet to publish.
 

 

I see now that he wrote it in the piece you posted from him, I did not notice that earlier.